Articles

NAGI Legal Disccusion

A very old article about how legal NAGI really is. I've received some emails about the subject and one day I'll update this article.

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#Sarien

Here's another chat I had in #sarien. These guys are friendlier at least. :) It's a bit lengthy but there's a lot of interesting information. I was tired and bummed out through most of this conversation because I was working night shift before it and hadn't had any sleep. But that's another story...

[08:57] <DopefishJustin> on the plus side, you'll have more time for nagi now ;)
[08:58] <JayFive> heh.. true
[08:59] <JayFive> I went on #sdl to ask about sdl packaging 'n stuff
[08:59] <JayFive> and one person thought that the way i was making nagi was cheating :)
[08:59] <JayFive> then you've got the legalities of it as well
[08:59] <JayFive> is it worth it?
[09:00] <DopefishJustin> i like the sarien approach more, but nagi is currently much more functional
[09:00] <JayFive> currently.. what about when sarien is more functional? is everybody going to forget about nagi?
[09:00] <syke> JayFive: if sierra ever decides to go after you, you will definitely have quite a few problems
[09:01] * syke shrugs
[09:01] <syke> I never looked at NAGI or the source
[09:01] <syke> sarien seems to be portable to the extreme
[09:01] <DopefishJustin> some of the nagi-original modifications may find a home in sarien someday
[09:02] <JayFive> nagi gets to be a sarien patch
[09:02] <DopefishJustin> i'm not sure about the legality of using spec information gleaned from it
[09:03] <JayFive> but spec information from russian disassemblers is ok
[09:04] <syke> JayFive: it can be very tricky.
[09:05] <syke> For instance, someone can reverse engineer/disassemble directly from the code
[09:05] <syke> and write documentation
[09:05] <syke> and then someone can implement from that documentation
[09:06] <syke> and there is precedent in the US for that being considered "clean room"
[09:06] <syke> however
[09:06] <syke> reverse engineering to source code
[09:06] <syke> and then copying or reimplenting that code into new code
[09:06] <syke> is highly suspect
[09:07] <JayFive> so i've written something that no agi coder wants to touch basically
[09:07] <syke> mm
[09:07] <syke> well
[09:07] <syke> I wouldn't recommend anyone copy the code directly
[09:08] <JayFive> nice...
[09:08] <syke> but
[09:08] <syke> if you re-implemented what you learned from the disassembly
[09:08] <syke> without directly copying that disassembly
[09:08] <syke> that might be excusable
[09:08] <syke> are you in teh US?
[09:09] <JayFive> aus
[09:09] <syke> ok
[09:09] <syke> the laws there may be more lax
[09:09] <syke> but yes, you've done a big no-no as far as free software is concerned
[09:09] <syke> have you contacted sierra in any way?
[09:10] <syke> to ger permission, or to make them aware of the project, or to request information?
[09:10] <JayFive> no, i was under the assumption that they never replied to any such thing
[09:12] <syke> ask christoph from freesci about his experiences
[09:12] <syke> he asked a number of hte original programmers, who all refused to give infromation fo course :)
[09:12] <syke> (mostly fearing sierra's wrath)
[09:12] <syke> on a side note
[09:12] <syke> I think it would be awesome to unite the two projects, tho
[09:13] <syke> I'm all for pooling efforts :)
[09:13] <JayFive> i dunno if you'd want to touch the bits *i* actually wrote
[09:13] <syke> in the same way I would love it if FreeSCI and Sarien shared video driver code and graphics effects code
[09:13] <JayFive> the rest would be untouchable
[09:13] <syke> well, yea
[09:13] <syke> but you could apply your knowledge to sarien
[09:13] <syke> and not necessarily copy code
[09:13] <DopefishJustin> nagi has some cool stuff, like the click-to-move code
[09:14] <DopefishJustin> and fullscreen under Win32
[09:14] <syke> DopefishJustin: if you want fullscreen under win32, I can do that pretty quickly :)
[09:14] <syke> fuck
[09:14] <syke> i need to do some checkins for sarien and freesci
[09:14] <JayFive> 1) move.obj without setting a flag and ignore player.control
[09:14] <JayFive> 2) like syke said
[09:15] * JayFive doesn't like the idea of just being some agi tour-guide
[09:15] <DopefishJustin> ummm...nagi' sample based sound mixer?
[09:15] <JayFive> whee
[09:15] <syke> JayFive: Maybe you misunderstand --
[09:15] <syke> you can re-code things, that is probably safe
[09:16] <syke> but directly copying code from the reverse engineered binary isn't, I don't tihnk
[09:16] <JayFive> yes but how far do I go until the re-coded stuff is legal?
[09:17] <JayFive> and in going through these hoops I have to make it work with the original agi

<Note: stuff on watcom and graphics libraries.. not nagi/legal related>

[09:45] <JayFive> i think i might drop nagi and start up another project
[09:45] <JayFive> too much wasted time already
[09:45] <DopefishJustin> the agi studio thing?
[09:45] <JayFive> maybe something totally unrelated to agi
[09:46] <JayFive> this whole thing is getting me down.. i just wasted my time
[09:46] <DopefishJustin> hey now
[09:46] <DopefishJustin> if nothing else, you got programming experience
[09:47] <JayFive> whee
[09:47] <DopefishJustin> i've programmed all kinds of stuff that doesn't work
[09:47] <DopefishJustin> i don't care
[09:47] <DopefishJustin> it's the fun of programming it that counts
[09:48] <JayFive> all this other stuff doesn't make it fun
[09:48] <syke> JayFive: not at all
[09:48] <syke> you definitely learned things about AGI no one else could have figued out
[09:49] <syke> like the mouse support stuff
[09:49] <syke> and i'll bet you learned a lot of about how to disassemble and rever engineer thinggs :)
[09:49] <DopefishJustin> and it gets the award of the first fully functional fan-made agi interpreter
[09:50] <JayFive> yeh, but what's the use of knowing how to do that if all you're going to do is write specs so somebody else can code the thing?
[09:50] <JayFive> if i try and re-code it.. i'll always be accused of using the original code
[09:51] <JayFive> i spent a long time on this and it's just one big bummer
[09:52] <syke> JayFive: like I said, check out the laws in your country
[09:52] <syke> also
[09:52] <JayFive> i did.. it's legal for certain things
[09:52] <syke> you may end up getting permission from sierra
[09:52] <syke> there are still many options here, should you choose to take them
[09:53] <syke> JayFive: the wonder of open source is that re-use of proprietary IP can be easily disproven
[09:53] <syke> since the source is public
[09:53] <DopefishJustin> and what about that standard.ini idea you had? that's something unique
[09:53] <syke> all you have to watch out for is patented algorithms
[09:53] <syke> (I don't think ther eare any in AGI)
[09:53] <DopefishJustin> LZW
[09:53] <JayFive> nothing to do with patents.. it's copyright law
[09:54] <JayFive> despite the fact it's object code.. copyright law still applies
[09:54] <JayFive> and apparently reverseengineering is only "legal" enough if it's for interoperability issues
[09:54] <syke> yes
[09:54] <JayFive> http://www.dcita.gov.au/cgi-bin/trap.pl?path=4189
[09:54] <DopefishJustin> and sierra had a patent on "3-d graphical adventure games" but i think that got shot down in court
[09:56] <syke> JayFive: before you get too discouraged, I would talk to a lawyer perhaps
[09:56] <syke> or contact Sierra
[09:56] <syke> but
[09:56] <syke> there is precendent in the US that should be looked at, since Sierra is a US company
[09:57] <syke> I am somehat farmiliar with this stuff because I follow IP law caes
[09:57] <syke> cases, rather
[09:57] <JayFive> i'll try the sierra route but then i'll give up the nagi project
[09:57] <JayFive> it's basically a rebadged sierra interpreter with extra bits put in
[09:58] <syke> I'm sorry you're down :/
[09:58] <syke> I think there is still neat stuff that can be done
[09:58] <DopefishJustin> think of it as a port, not a rehash
[09:59] <syke> bringing some of the best games ever made to open platforms is a great accomplishment
[09:59] <JayFive> i think that's sarien.. nagi was only built for windows (despite the sdl)
[10:00] <syke> hm
[10:00] <syke> are you just feeling you've taken it as far as it can go?
[10:00] <syke> are you bored with it?
[10:00] <syke> you seem to just be down, in general
[10:01] <JayFive> no, I'm feeling it's not worth it if people aren't going to want to use it
[10:01] <JayFive> people want a legal interpreter they can bundle with their games or they want an interpreter for another system
[10:01] <syke> why not join forces with claudio and work on Sarien, to help accelerate the development
[10:02] <syke> (or even freesci ;>)
[10:02] <JayFive> it's the same with nagi.. any recoding could be considered using the original code
[10:02] <syke> I don't think that's tru under US precedent
[10:03] <syke> is australian law says that, then asking sierra for permission might be your only option
[10:03] <JayFive> dunno exactly about aus law
[10:04] <syke> btw, writing documentation is *very* helpful
[10:04] <syke> has been for FreeSCI, anyways
[10:04] <JayFive> but i don't know how i feel about working for sarien and just giving up on nagi
[10:04] * syke shrugs
[10:04] <DopefishJustin> you said you were going to do that anyway
[10:04] <DopefishJustin> give up nagi
[10:05] <syke> if you're tired of AGI in general and just want to move onto something else, then go for it
[10:05] <syke> if you still fidn it interesting, there are options
[10:05] <DopefishJustin> and besides, AGI needs to be documented for future generations when the systems it ran on originally aren't available anymore
[10:06] <DopefishJustin> gotta go, bbl
[10:06] *** DopefishJustin is now known as JustinGone
[10:06] <JayFive> cya later justin
[10:06] <syke> JustinGone: documentation has been helpful in figuring out algorithms. when you try to explain something in english instead of code, sometimes inconsistencies jump out at you :)
[10:07] <JayFive> i'm going to get some sleep and think about it
[10:07] <JayFive> thanks for the suggestions
[10:07] <syke> ok
[10:07] <syke> uit would be cool to have you keep coding, you seem like a very bright guy :)
[10:07] <syke> nite :)
[10:07] <JayFive> cheers :)
[10:07] <JayFive> cya!
Session Close: Wed Jul 11 10:08:01 2001
 
Session Start: Thu Jul 12 08:28:30 2001
[08:32] <DopefishJustin> so, decided what to do with nagi?
[08:32] <JayFive> I'm thinking about sending a letter to sierra
[08:32] <JayFive> but I don't know what to do in the meantime
[08:33] <DopefishJustin> move zig for great justice? ;)
[08:33] <JayFive> I could give up on nagi.. work on sarien or something like that.. but I always think of cool things to add to nagi
[08:33] <JayFive> like df said, he's just in it for it to work
[08:33] <JayFive> I wanted to make nagi a free interpreter to help people make their own new games as well as play the old ones
[08:34] <JayFive> i think, like i said on the website, I mentioned that this guy rewrote digger and he was my inspiration
[08:34] <JayFive> I go to the site, read the faq and read the question "is this legal?"
[08:34] <JayFive> http://www.digger.org/faq.html
[08:34] <JayFive> so until i get sierra's blessing.. i guess not
[08:34] <DopefishJustin> i was just about to ask that
[08:35] <JayFive> but this guy is willing to give up any copyright to the original authors.. i could be willing to do the same.. but I wouldn't be able to make nagi opensource then
[08:35] <DopefishJustin> you start running into abandonware / emulation type issues with this kinda stuff
[08:36] <JayFive> yer, abandonware is cool.. but it's not legal unless it's authorised
[08:37] <JayFive> I mean, I could ignore the legal issues but then that gets rid of one of the reasons why i wrote nagi
[08:37] <DopefishJustin> right, if you wanna be illegal just use sierra
[08:37] <DopefishJustin> although i seem to recall them giving permission for that
[08:38] <JayFive> did they? if you could find mention of that somewhere, that would be interesting
[08:38] <JayFive> on the sierra website they have a snail mail address for general enquires
[08:38] <JayFive> and a crappy feedback web interface
[08:38] <DopefishJustin> i think it was only for one AGI site though, not blanket
[08:38] <JayFive> I think the snail mail is the way to go though
[08:38] <DopefishJustin> yeah
[08:39] <DopefishJustin> copyright laws are just fscked for computer software
[08:40] <JayFive> well no, they're fine
[08:40] <DopefishJustin> they're way too long
[08:40] <JayFive> but software companies have to clearly define what's going on with software that's 15 years old
[08:41] <JayFive> the gpl *needs* the copyright law for it to work
[08:41] <JayFive> software patents.. that's another kettle of fish
[08:41] <DopefishJustin> by the time it's legal to copy anything it'll have physically rotted
[08:48] <JayFive> well yer.. it depends ont he
[08:48] <JayFive> the copyright holder to back it up
[08:48] <DopefishJustin> fat chance
[08:53] <JayFive> basically, you need a fair enough time for large corporations to look after their copyright
[08:53] <JayFive> a way for them to extend it if they wish
[08:53] <JayFive> and some public backup system so that when the copyright does expire, people can access the information
[08:54] <DopefishJustin> yeah, renewal is good because that lets the stuff they care about get protected while letting the old stuff expire and get distributed
[08:54] <DopefishJustin> if they've forgotten it exists, they can't renew the copyright
[08:54] <JayFive> perhaps if it's owned by one person, let the copyright exist until they die
[08:54] <JayFive> if it's a corporation.. 10 years or more if they renew it
[08:55] <DopefishJustin> but no, Disney's gotta increase the copyright for EVERYTHING, just so mickey mouse won't expire
[08:55] <JayFive> eventually, the copyright for mickey will last until the sun blows up
[08:55] <DopefishJustin> but what about the human colonies on alpha centauri?
[08:55] <DopefishJustin> they must pay to see mickey too!!!!
[08:56] <JayFive> i think they'd be more worried about killing aliens
[08:57] <JayFive> I'd only move to alpha centauri if i could fight aliens
[08:57] <JayFive> bugger this whole population crisis thingy.. give me death of aliens!
[08:58] <DopefishJustin> plus, copyright is now nonenforceable in practice
[08:58] <JayFive> oh, they'd find a way to get somebody over to alpha centauri
[08:59] <JayFive> the law cases might take a while though
[09:00] <JayFive> heh, i love saying "they
[09:01] <JayFive> they'll find a way" even if i don't know if they can :)
[09:02] <JayFive> if QT's gpl
[09:02] <JayFive> why doesn't somebody port the linux version to windows?
[09:02] <JayFive> qt's linux port is qpl I mean
[09:02] <DopefishJustin> that's a darn good question
[09:02] <JayFive> arrgh.. gpl
[09:02] <DopefishJustin> i dunno if it's gpl, it might be some other license
[09:03] <JayFive> i heard the words trolltech, gpl and qt in the same sentence I'm sure!
[09:05] <DopefishJustin> from their web page, it looks like it's free but commercial
[09:07] <JayFive> http://www.trolltech.com/products/download/freelicense/qtfree-dl.html
[09:08] <DopefishJustin> hmm
[09:08] <DopefishJustin> maybe it's a lot of work and there are already other free widget sets to use
[09:09] <JayFive> i love how the free version for windows only supports a non-free ide/compiler (visual c)
[09:10] <DopefishJustin> I don't know whether to laugh or be angered at the IDSA FAQ on their web page. They answer all the questions but completely miss the point.
[09:12] <JayFive> i think the correct emotion is frustrated.. anger gets you nowhere apparently
[09:12] <DopefishJustin> frustration is good
[09:13] <DopefishJustin> unfortunately, it looks like Sierra is an IDSA member
[09:15] <JayFive> if they've got contact info on the idsa site. .that could be good
[09:15] <DopefishJustin> it only mentions Havas Interactive, their parent company
[09:22] <JayFive> oh no.. the original agi-studio is in pascal! :)
[09:34] <syke|gone> hi
[09:35] *** syke|gone is now known as syke
[09:36] <syke> QT is dual-licensed. GPL and Commercial licenses
[09:36] <syke> the win32 QT has an odd free license
[09:36] <syke> but is still free
[09:36] <DopefishJustin> free beer?
[09:36] <syke> someone has a KDE on windows project that uses cygwin
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Heh, I'm talking about copyright issues and here I am, copying and pasting information without asking for permission.

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